kascollet Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:45 AM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:45 AM C'est pas ce qu'ils décrivent sur leur site ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolganoFF Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:49 AM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:49 AM Ecoute, on voit très bien sur la photo: c'est un self et un condensateur c'est tout. Ca ne peut pas être autre chose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foulala Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:51 AM Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:51 AM J'arrive pas à écouter leur SC. Vous non plus ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsplash Posted November 15, 2011 at 10:01 AM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 10:01 AM Chez moi, les MP4 marchent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foulala Posted November 15, 2011 at 10:07 AM Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 10:07 AM Du coup, t'entends une coupure juste sur les "mids" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolganoFF Posted November 15, 2011 at 10:15 AM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 10:15 AM moi oui. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kascollet Posted November 15, 2011 at 10:29 AM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 10:29 AM Donc ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolganoFF Posted November 15, 2011 at 10:55 AM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 10:55 AM Ça coupe les mids, comme Varitone ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kascollet Posted November 15, 2011 at 11:26 AM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 11:26 AM (edited) Non, le Varitone ne sait pas couper les mids sans toucher aux aigus. Comme le Tonestyler, il ne sait qu'attenuer toutes les fréquences au delà d'une fréquence variable. Ça me semble un peu hasardeux Dolga, et peu conforme à ce que ce fou furieux décrit. C'est assez long mais méchamment instructif. L'original est la : http://www.guitarzone.com/forum/topic/186715-gibsons-varitone-knob/page__unlockUserAgent__1 I recall posting some of this information in the Fabulous Stratocaster Modification Project, but it is interesting, so this is a great link that has a circuit diagram (a.k.a., "schematic") for the Gibson Varitone control, along with some detailed electronic information, which is fabulous . . . Gibson Varitone Control (Mandrak's Rootwerx) Fabulous! In some respects, it is the inductor (a.k.a. "choke") that makes this different from a switch which simply selects among a set of fixed-value capacitors . . . Formally, the Varitone-style TONE control is an LC Filter, Resonant Band-Pass Filter, or if you prefer simply a Resonant Filter, where "L" is inductance and "C" is capacitance, as explained at this link, which is fabulous . . . Resonant Filter (All About Circuits) Fabulous! In contrast, what one might call a "standard TONE control" is an RC Filter, where "R" is resistance and "C" is capacitance, with this typically being a Capacitive Low-Pass Filter, which is easier to understand when you realize that this type of passive TONE control on a guitar is OFF at 10 but all the way ON at 0, which is the exact opposite of the way it is perceived, because instead of adding treble, it actually cuts or attenuates treble, but because someone arbitrarily decided that it would not make much sense to have 10 be maximum treble reduction, the potentiometer is manufactured in such a way that it works backward when rotated clockwise, which creates the illusion that the TONE control is adding treble when what really is happening is that it is reducing the amount of treble that is cut or attenuated, which is fabulous . . . Capacitive Low-Pass Filter What does this diagram tell me? Great question! In Mathematics, all lines are called "curves", even when they are straight lines, so the red curve is the key bit of information. And since curves are made from a whole bunch of tiny dots called "points", the red curve is a bunch of points, where each point along the red curve maps to an output voltage (shown on the vertical axis to the left) and a frequency (shown on the horizontal axis underneath). So, what you do to make sense of the diagram is to determine how the strength of the output signal (which is the stuff that travels through your guitar cord and goes to the amplifier or whatever) changes based on the frequency or pitch of the note you are playing on the guitar. In other words, the red curve shows you that lower frequency notes are a lot louder than higher frequency notes when this type of standard TONE control filter is set to zero or 1, which is all the way counterclockwise. But more specifically, it is a frequency response curve, and the important information is that as the frequency or pitch of notes becomes higher, the loudness of the note diminishes to the point that in this particular diagram you are not going to be hearing much of notes that are higher than perhaps the "D" string on an electric guitar at standard tuning. In other words, no matter what you play, the guitar is going to sound more like a bass than anything else, but with an important twist, which is that the lower the frequency or pitch of the note, the louder it sounds . . . Fabulous! Making an educated guess, I think that the Rothstein "V6 - 6-Position Varitone (for Guitar)" TONE control is a series resonant LC band-pass filter, since there is only one inductor and the inductor is in series with the black wire, which tends to exclude it being in parallel with the switch-selected capacitor array, which is fabulous . . . Fabulous! If this guess is correct, then the resonant filter will have a frequency response similar to the one shown in this diagram from the All About Circuits website listed above, with the curve changing based on which capacitor is selected by the six-position rotary switch, with position one being true bypass: Series Resonant LC Band-Pass Filter What is this diagram telling me? Great question! The red curve on this diagram is a bit different from the red curve on the standard TONE control diagram, and it is more of a bell-shaped curve, while the standard TONE control diagram is a nearly straight line that starts higher and goes lower in a very smooth way. So, what happens with the series resonant LC band-pass filter is that it likes or favors the frequencies or pitches in the middle area a lot more than the lower and higher stuff. In fact, it pretty much blocks the lower stuff and the higher stuff, and the more middle the stuff, the louder it is, which is very different from the way a standard TONE control behaves (a capacitance low-pass filter, which actually is an RC filter, where "R" is resistance and represents the potentiometer, while "C" is capacitance and represents the capacitor), with the key difference being the use of an inductor or choke ("L") instead of a resistor ("R") . . . [NOTE: The Rothstein passive TONE controls are described as being mid-suckers, which one might presume maps to not favoring middle frequencies, which pretty much is the opposite of what the Series Resonant LC Band-Pass Filter diagram is showing, so either there is something else happening with the Rothstein passive TONE controls or the term "mid-sucker" is used in the goofy perceptual sense that maps to a standard TONE control boosting treble, which of course is not what a standard passive TONE control actually does. So, after pondering this for a few seconds, I think that a bit of common sense will be helpful, which mostly is based on the way a standard TONE control behaves when it is set to zero or 1 (all the way counterclockwise), with this mapping to the maximum value of the capacitor. In other words, the higher the capacitance, the more the circuit favors lower frequencies, pitches, or notes, but the lower the capacitance, the more the filter favors middle and higher frequencies. So, in this particular diagram, I think that the red curve shows the behavior of the series resonant LC band-pass filter when the selector switch has a smaller value capacitor selected from the set of capacitors, which in this particular instance is more of a combination of a bass-sucker and a treble-sucker, which changes the interpretation of "mid-sucker" from "taking away" to "grabbing and putting in the spotlight", which in part is due to the affect of the inductor or choke ("L") on the otherwise perhaps linear affect of the capacitor ("C"). In other words, the inductor or choke changes the overall behavior of the filter in a way that effectively modifies the outside part of the standard TONE control curve, which in some respects maps to the Rothstein "V6 - 6-Position Varitone (for Guitar)" TONE control essentially being a strange type of selector switch that lets you put the focus or spotlight on particular strings or groups of notes, where at the largest capacitance setting (the selector switch position that maps to the biggest value capacitor of the set), the focus or spotlight is on the lowest strings ("E" and "A"), while at the lowest capacitance setting (the smallest value capacitor of the set), the focus is more on the higher strings or notes. I think this makes sense, but I need to read a bit more on what the inductor or choke actually does before I am convinced. The Rothstein passive TONE controls definitely do what Andy Rothstein says that they do, which when you listen to the resulting TONE maps to removing the middle stuff in varying amounts, similar to what a wah-wah pedal or a voice-box (think "Peter Frampton") does, so one might suggest that the key to understanding the series resonant LC band-pass filter is what "mid-sucker" actually describes in terms of what one perceives, which as best as I can determine maps to flipping the Series Resonant LC Band-Pass Filter red curve horizontally at least some of the time in a few of the selector switch settings, so that instead of making the stuff in the middle louder, it makes the stuff on the ends of the red curve louder but drops the loudness of the stuff in the middle of the red curve. Basically, all this stuff is like so totally beyond complex or something, but so what . . . ] IMPORTANT: Consequently, after a bit more pondering, I think that the Rothstein "V6 - 6-Position Varitone (for Guitar)" TONE control actually is a Series Resonant LC Band-Stop Filter with the behavior shown in the following diagram, which clearly has a mid-sucker behavior and is fabulous: Series Resonant LC Band-Stop Filter Fabulous! And it is important to observe that these particular types of filters effectively function in a way similar to a "brick wall" filter, where the only frequencies that pass through the filters are shown by the red curve, such that in the Resonant Filter diagrams the filters allow specific frequencies to pass but block all other frequencies, which for an electric guitar in standard tuning tends to have a focusing effect, which tends to focus the TONE on fundamental or root frequencies and certain lower harmonics, overtones, and partials, with the abrupt blocking of frequencies below the lower boundary and above the upper boundary being a bit like placing impenetrable brick walls at each end of the filter curve, which in the case of the Series Resonant LC Band-Stop Filter has the additional focusing affect of removing a good bit of the middle frequencies as well (the mid-sucker effect), which is fabulous . . . Fabulous! [NOTE: If you study the photographs of the V6 - 6-Position Varitone (for Guitar)" TONE control at the Rothstein website, it is easy to see that the inductor in fact is wired in series with the capacitors, since the terminating wire from each capacitor connects to one side of the inductor and the other side of the inductor is the black wire, which in this instance goes ground, while the white wire is the output signal of the pickup or whatever, which effectively is the input to the Varitone-style TONE control in the strange universe of analog electromagnetism and above all else is like so totally confusing, really . . . ] And from a different but nevertheless related perspective, none of this stuff acts independently, which is one of the truly strange aspects of the analog universe, where most of the time stuff is highly dependent in such a way that tweaking something tends to cause cascading consequences . . . In great contrast, everything in the digital universe is in one of three states {ON, OFF, DC ("Don't Care!")}, which makes it much easier to determine what happens and why it happens . . . Stated another way, this is one of the reasons that it takes so long to become a medical doctor . . . Huh? The reason is that for the most part people are analog, and repairing and tuning analog stuff (which includes people) is a complex activity . . . So, it is not simply a matter of getting a marvelous Varitone-style control . . . NO! The way the Varitone-style TONE control actually works on a specific guitar is very dependent on the pickup to which it is connected, which in turn is dependent on the guitar strings, the location of the pickup on the pick guard, and so forth and so on . . . And this is one of the primary reasons that I use all "bridge output" Seymour Duncan designed for the Stratocaster pickups on The Fabulous Fifty Million Dollar Stratocaster, which is fabulous . . . Fabulous! My thinking on this is the pickups effectively are the electric generators for what one might call the "guitar engine", with the vibrating strings being the power source, hence the best way to get more electricity when the vibrating strings are strictly defined is to use the most efficient electric generators possible, which in the pickup universe maps to "bridge output" pickups, which is fabulous . . . Fabulous! And considering the affect that location has on the frequency response of a pickup, the most logical pickup to get the brightest frequency response on a Stratocaster is the bridge position, which in part is due to the bridge pickup being angled, as explained in the Fabulous Stratocaster Modification Project, which is fabulous . . . Fabulous! Another important factor in selecting a Varitone-style TONE control and pickup combination is the way you want to handle harmonicity and inharmonicity, which is an elaborate way to describe what one might call "pure tone" versus "atonality", which in some respects is a matter of texture, where atonality maps to the type of texture that favors what one might call "in between" notes, which is fabulous . . . Fabulous! And as an example of atonality and "in between" notes, I encourage you to listen to the two Amazing Quonks at the end of the second lead guitar solo on "M-O-N-E-Y" (The Surf Whammys) while wearing iPod ear buds or headphones, which is fabulous . . . Fabulous! Edited November 15, 2011 at 12:01 PM by kascollet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foulala Posted November 15, 2011 at 12:21 PM Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 12:21 PM La "synthèse en Français pour les nuls" c'est quoi ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kascollet Posted November 15, 2011 at 12:33 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 12:33 PM La synthèse, c'est que Rothstein fait un vrai creuseur de médiums passif et que je vais en commander un pour la all-white-slappable-P-Bass !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danboney Posted November 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 12:37 PM Ecoute, on voit très bien sur la photo: c'est un self et un condensateur c'est tout. Ca ne peut pas être autre chose! alors , voyons voir , ma tite pierre à l'édifice ... de mémoire (cépagagné) un circuit LC , ça peut faire office de passe haut , de passe bas , mais aussi de circuit bouchon (et sans doute d'autres trucs inconnus de moué ) , et un circuit bouchon ça creuse une bande passante aux fréquences pour lesquelles il a été calculé , donc ça peut très bien creuser des médiums ... j'ai trouvé ça => http://f5zv.pagesperso-orange.fr/RADIO/RM/RM23/RM23I/RM23i09.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foulala Posted November 15, 2011 at 12:39 PM Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 12:39 PM La synthèse, c'est que Rothstein fait un vrai creuseur de médiums passif et que je vais en commander un pour la all-white-slappable-P-Bass !! Voilà, j'ai compris ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolganoFF Posted November 15, 2011 at 02:04 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 02:04 PM alors , voyons voir , ma tite pierre à l'édifice ... de mémoire (cépagagné) un circuit LC , ça peut faire office de passe haut , de passe bas , mais aussi de circuit bouchon (et sans doute d'autres trucs inconnus de moué ) , et un circuit bouchon ça creuse une bande passante aux fréquences pour lesquelles il a été calculé , donc ça peut très bien creuser des médiums ... j'ai trouvé ça => http://f5zv.pagesperso-orange.fr/RADIO/RM/RM23/RM23I/RM23i09.html On est d'accord. En simplifiant: Le Varitone classique (Gibson) est un coupe-bande, il bouffe le signal autour de sa fréquence de résonance. En variant cette fréquence, on peut couper aussi les aigus d'ailleurs. Dans l'autre biniou que Kasco présentait, la fréquence de résonance est positionnée vers 500 Hz (à la louche, je "devine" en écoutant les clips), d'où la sensation de "mid-scoup" bon pour le slap. Le Tonestyler c'est un passe-bande (imparfait, à cause de résistance interne de la bobine de micro), il donne le coup de pouce au signal autour de sa fréquence de résonance, ça retombe très fort sur les fréquences plus hautes mais le niveau est maintenu sur les fréquences plus basses. C'est pour ça que je l'ai appelé l'autre fois "anti-varitone", ils marchent à contresens en quelque sorte. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kascollet Posted November 15, 2011 at 03:53 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 03:53 PM Bon, oui, mais le Varitone enleve toujours un peu d'aigus il me semble. Dommage pour la brillance affectionnée par certains slappeurs. Un intéressante review du Tonestyler par le grand Ed Friedland : http://jazztimes.com/articles/20916-stellartone-tonestyler-bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolganoFF Posted November 15, 2011 at 05:10 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 05:10 PM Ca dépend de la qualité du self utilisé dans le varitone. Il peu enlever un peu d'aigus si sa capacité parasite est assez haute. Mais c'est vrai alors aussi pour "le creuseur de Rothstein" vu qu'électroniquement rien ne les départage à part le switch rotatif sur le varitone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBR Posted November 15, 2011 at 08:06 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 08:06 PM Topic un poil incompréhensible pour un "noob" comme moi, mais super intéressant. En gros, je mets quoi sur une PB 62 montée en Thomastik pour que la tona me serve à quelque chose ? Le "Tonestyler machin chose" ou juste une bonne vieille capa "Orange machin truc" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foulala Posted November 15, 2011 at 08:12 PM Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 08:12 PM Bah en fait, il te faut deux JB et tu règles le problème Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolganoFF Posted November 15, 2011 at 08:42 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 08:42 PM Topic un poil incompréhensible pour un "noob" comme moi, mais super intéressant. En gros, je mets quoi sur une PB 62 montée en Thomastik pour que la tona me serve à quelque chose ? Le "Tonestyler machin chose" ou juste une bonne vieille capa "Orange machin truc" ? Potard concentrique volume/tona dans le trou N°1, tonestyler dans le trou N°2. Comme ça tu as les deux-en-un sans défigurer ta belle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBR Posted November 15, 2011 at 08:49 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 08:49 PM Potard concentrique volume/tona dans le trou N°1, tonestyler dans le trou N°2. Comme ça tu as les deux-en-un sans défigurer ta belle. Parce qu'on peut cumuler les 2 ? Il faut VRAIMENT que je relise le topic plus attentivement ! Merci en tout cas pour cette très bonne idée. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolganoFF Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:01 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:01 PM C'est écrit nulle part en clair dans le topic, c'est pas de ta faute Donc oui, on peut rajouter un potard supplémentaire dans la config "tonestyler" pour retomber dans le cas de la tona "standard". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etienne de B Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:05 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:05 PM Est-ce mieux que le micro en prise directe et une pédale d'Eq ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolganoFF Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:07 PM Share Posted November 15, 2011 at 09:07 PM "Mieux" n'existe pas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etienne de B Posted November 18, 2011 at 09:10 PM Share Posted November 18, 2011 at 09:10 PM (edited) J'explique : depuis plusieurs mois je n'utilise plus que deux basses à un seul micro. Par voie de conséquence j'ai toujours les potards à fond, et quand je veux régler le son je vais toujours sur l'ampli. Si je me fais une basse sur mesure elle sera en prise directe je pense. Pardon pour cette digression ! Edited November 18, 2011 at 09:14 PM by Etienne de B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr King Kong Posted November 19, 2011 at 10:50 AM Share Posted November 19, 2011 at 10:50 AM Je suis peut être HS, mais sur ma JB et ma Status, quasiment pas de changement quand je tourne le potard de tonalité... C'est peut être dû à mon ampli (un combo Hartke 60watts) mais il est pourtant assez réactif quand je passe du micro manche au micro chevalet pour la JB ! Avant d'avoir la Status je pensais que c'était la tona de la JB qui marchait pas, maintenant je me dis que c'est l'ampli qui retranscrit pas assez les variations de la tonalité. Qu'en pensez-vous ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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